gorgias-第3部分

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nd　yet　those　who　have　learned　as　well　as　those　who　have　believed　are　persuaded？　　　Gor。　Just　so。　　　Soc。　Shall　we　then　assume　two　sorts　of　persuasion；…one　which　is　the　source　of　belief　without　knowledge；　as　the　other　is　of　knowledge？　　　Gor。　By　all　means。　　　Soc。　And　which　sort　of　persuasion　does　rhetoric　create　in　courts　of　law　and　other　assemblies　about　the　just　and　unjust；　the　sort　of　persuasion　which　gives　belief　without　knowledge；　or　that　which　gives　knowledge？　　　Gor。　Clearly；　Socrates；　that　which　only　gives　belief。　　　Soc。　Then　rhetoric；　as　would　appear；　is　the　artificer　of　a　persuasion　which　creates　belief　about　the　just　and　unjust；　but　gives　no　instruction　about　them？　　　Gor。　True。　　　Soc。　And　the　rhetorician　does　not　instruct　the　courts　of　law　or　other　assemblies　about　things　just　and　unjust；　but　he　creates　belief　about　them；　for　no　one　can　be　supposed　to　instruct　such　a　vast　multitude　about　such　high　matters　in　a　short　time？　　　Gor。　Certainly　not。　　　Soc。　Come；　then；　and　let　us　see　what　we　really　mean　about　rhetoric；　for　I　do　not　know　what　my　own　meaning　is　as　yet。　When　the　assembly　meets　to　elect　a　physician　or　a　shipwright　or　any　other　craftsman；　will　the　rhetorician　be　taken　into　counsel？　Surely　not。　For　at　every　election　he　ought　to　be　chosen　who　is　most　skilled；　and；　again；　when　walls　have　to　be　built　or　harbours　or　docks　to　be　constructed；　not　the　rhetorician　but　the　master　workman　will　advise；　or　when　generals　have　to　be　chosen　and　an　order　of　battle　arranged；　or　a　proposition　taken；　then　the　military　will　advise　and　not　the　rhetoricians：　what　do　you　say；　Gorgias？　Since　you　profess　to　be　a　rhetorician　and　a　maker　of　rhetoricians；　I　cannot　do　better　than　learn　the　nature　of　your　art　from　you。　And　here　let　me　assure　you　that　I　have　your　interest　in　view　as　well　as　my　own。　For　likely　enough　some　one　or　other　of　the　young　men　present　might　desire　to　become　your　pupil；　and　in　fact　I　see　some；　and　a　good　many　too；　who　have　this　wish；　but　they　would　be　too　modest　to　question　you。　And　therefore　when　you　are　interrogated　by　me；　I　would　have　you　imagine　that　you　are　interrogated　by　them。　〃What　is　the　use　of　coming　to　you；　Gorgias？　they　will　say　about　what　will　you　teach　us　to　advise　the　state？…about　the　just　and　unjust　only；　or　about　those　other　things　also　which　Socrates　has　just　mentioned？　How　will　you　answer　them？　　　Gor。　I　like　your　way　of　leading　us　on；　Socrates；　and　I　will　endeavour　to　reveal　to　you　the　whole　nature　of　rhetoric。　You　must　have　heard；　I　think；　that　the　docks　and　the　walls　of　the　Athenians　and　the　plan　of　the　harbour　were　devised　in　accordance　with　the　counsels；　partly　of　Themistocles；　and　partly　of　Pericles；　and　not　at　the　suggestion　of　the　builders。　　　Soc。　Such　is　the　tradition；　Gorgias；　about　Themistocles；　and　I　myself　heard　the　speech　of　Pericles　when　he　advised　us　about　the　middle　wall。　　　Gor。　And　you　will　observe；　Socrates；　that　when　a　decision　has　to　be　given　in　such　matters　the　rhetoricians　are　the　advisers；　they　are　the　men　who　win　their　point。　　　Soc。　I　had　that　in　my　admiring　mind；　Gorgias；　when　I　asked　what　is　the　nature　of　rhetoric；　which　always　appears　to　me；　when　I　look　at　the　matter　in　this　way；　to　be　a　marvel　of　greatness。　　　Gor。　A　marvel；　indeed；　Socrates；　if　you　only　knew　how　rhetoric　comprehends　and　holds　under　her　sway　all　the　inferior　arts。　Let　me　offer　you　a　striking　example　of　this。　On　several　occasions　I　have　been　with　my　brother　Herodicus　or　some　other　physician　to　see　one　of　his　patients；　who　would　not　allow　the　physician　to　give　him　medicine；　or　apply　a　knife　or　hot　iron　to　him；　and　I　have　persuaded　him　to　do　for　me　what　he　would　not　do　for　the　physician　just　by　the　use　of　rhetoric。　And　I　say　that　if　a　rhetorician　and　a　physician　were　to　go　to　any　city；　and　had　there　to　argue　in　the　Ecclesia　or　any　other　assembly　as　to　which　of　them　should　be　elected　state…physician；　the　physician　would　have　no　chance；　but　he　who　could　speak　would　be　chosen　if　he　wished；　and　in　a　contest　with　a　man　of　any　other　profession　the　rhetorician　more　than　any　one　would　have　the　power　of　getting　himself　chosen；　for　he　can　speak　more　persuasively　to　the　multitude　than　any　of　them；　and　on　any　subject。　Such　is　the　nature　and　power　of　the　art　of　rhetoric　And　yet；　Socrates；　rhetoric　should　be　used　like　any　other　competitive　art；　not　against　everybody…the　rhetorician　ought　not　to　abuse　his　strength　any　more　than　a　pugilist　or　pancratiast　or　other　master　of　fence；　because　he　has　powers　which　are　more　than　a　match　either　for　friend　or　enemy；　he　ought　not　therefore　to　strike；　stab；　or　slay　his　friends。　Suppose　a　man　to　have　been　trained　in　the　palestra　and　to　be　a　skilful　boxer…he　in　the　fulness　of　his　strength　goes　and　strikes　his　father　or　mother　or　one　of　his　familiars　or　friends；　but　that　is　no　reason　why　the　trainers　or　fencing…masters　should　be　held　in　detestation　or　banished　from　the　city…surely　not。　For　they　taught　their　art　for　a　good　purpose；　to　be　used　against　enemies　and　evil…doers；　in　self…defence　not　in　aggression；　and　others　have　perverted　their　instructions；　and　turned　to　a　bad　use　their　own　strength　and　skill。　But　not　on　this　account　are　the　teachers　bad；　neither　is　the　art　in　fault；　or　bad　in　itself；　I　should　rather　say　that　those　who　make　a　bad　use　of　the　art　are　to　blame。　And　the　same　argument　holds　good　of　rhetoric；　for　the　rhetorician　can　speak　against　all　men　and　upon　any　subject…in　short；　he　can　persuade　the　multitude　better　than　any　other　man　of　anything　which　he　pleases；　but　he　should　not　therefore　seek　to　defraud　the　physician　or　any　other　artist　of　his　reputation　merely　because　he　has　the　power；　he　ought　to　use　rhetoric　fairly；　as　he　would　also　use　his　athletic　powers。　And　if　after　having　become　a　rhetorician　he　makes　a　bad　use　of　his　strength　and　skill；　his　instructor　surely　ought　not　on　that　account　to　be　held　in　detestation　or　banished。　For　he　was　intended　by　his　teacher　to　make　a　good　use　of　his　instructions；　but　he　abuses　them。　And　therefore　he　is　the　person　who　ought　to　be　held　in　detestation；　banished；　and　put　to　death；　and　not　his　instructor。　　　Soc。　You；　Gorgias；　like　myself；　have　had　great　experience　of　disputations；　and　you　must　have　observed；　I　think；　that　they　do　not　always　terminate　in　mutual　edification；　or　in　the　definition　by　either　party　of　the　subjects　which　they　are　discussing；　but　disagreements　are　apt　to　arise…somebody　says　that　another　has　not　spoken　truly　or　clearly；　and　then　they　get　into　a　passion　and　begin　to　quarrel；　both　parties　conceiving　that　their　opponents　are　arguing　from　personal　feeling　only　and　jealousy　of　themselves；　not　from　any　interest　in　the　question　at　issue。　And　sometimes　they　will　go　on　abusing　one　another　until　the　company　at　last　are　quite　vexed　at　themselves　for　ever　listening　to　such　fellows。　Why　do　I　say　this？　Why；　because　I　cannot　help　feeling　that　you　are　now　saying　what　is　not　quite　consistent　or　accordant　with　what　you　were　saying　at　first　about　rhetoric。　And　I　am　afraid　to　point　this　out　to　you；　lest　you　should　think　that　I　have　some　animosity　against　you；　and　that　I　speak；　not　for　the　sake　of　discovering　the　truth；　but　from　jealousy　of　you。　Now　if　you　are　one　of　my　sort；　I　should　like　to　cross…examine　you；　but　if　not　I　will　let　you　alone。　And　what　is　my　sort？　you　will　ask。　I　am　one　of　those　who　are　very　willing　to　be　refuted　if　I　say　anything　which　is　not　true；　and　very　willing　to　refute　any　one　else　who　says　what　is　not　true；　and　quite　as　ready　to　be　refuted　as　to　refute…I　for　I　hold　that　this　is　the　greater　gain　of　the　two；　just　as　the　gain　is　greater　of　being　cured　of　a　very　great　evil　than　of　curing　another。　For　I　imagine　that　there　is　no　evil　which　a　man　can　endure　so　great　as　an　erroneous　opinion　about　the　matters　of　which　we　are　speaking　and　if　you　claim　to　be　one　of　my　sort；　let　us　have　the　discussion　out；　but　if　you　would　rather　have　done；　no　matter…let　us　make　an　end　of　it。　　　Gor。　I　should　say；　Socrates；　that　I　am　quite　the　man　whom　you　indicate；　but；　perhaps；　we　ought　to　consider　the　audience；　for；　before　you　came；　I　had　already　given　a　long　exhibition；　and　if　we　proceed　the　argument　may　run　on　to　a　great　length。　And　therefore　I　think　that　we　should　consider　whether　we；　may　not　be　detaining　some　part　of　the　company　when　they　are　wanting　to　do　something　else。　　　Chaer。　You　hear　the　audience　cheering；　Gorgias　and　Socrates；　which　shows　their　desire　to　listen　to　you；　and　for　myself；　Heaven　forbid　that　I　should　have　any　business　on　hand　which　would　take　me　Away　from　a　discussion　so　interesting　and　so　ably　maintained。　　　Cal。　By　the　gods；　Chaerephon；　although　I　have　been　present　at　many　discussions；　I　doubt　whether　I　was　ever　so　much　delighted　before；　and　therefore　if　you　go　on　discoursing　all　day　I　shall　be　the　better　pleased。　　　Soc。　I　may　truly　say；　Callicles；　that　I　am　willing；　if　Gorgias　is。　　　Gor。　After　all　this；　Socrates；　I　should　be　disgraced　if　I　refused；　especially　as　I　have　promised　to　answer　all　comers；　in　accordance　with　the　wishes　of　the　company；　them；　do　you　begin。　and　ask　of　me　any　question　which　you　like。　　　Soc。　Let　me　tell　you　then；　Gorgias；　what　surprises　me　in　your　words；　though　I　dare　say　that　you　may　be　right；　and　I　may　have　understood　your　meaning。　You　say　that　you　can　make　any　man；　who　will　learn　of　you；　a　rhetorician？　　　G